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Re: Are People As Stupid As They Appear To Be?
[Re: Jim Garvie]
#24247
07/21/09 06:36 PM
07/21/09 06:36 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Kansas
psmith
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Nov 2008
Kansas
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Quote:
What's the difference? In dog or cat showing, breeding is commercial. That's how you make money. Certainly not by winning a show or being ranked nationally. Those pursuits cost the exhibitor money.
Jim
I see the difference in how much revenue is generated from the ad. And in what the market will bear.
There are few cat breeders who earn their living breeding cats. Many just try to recoup their Vet bills and showing costs and not lose money. A portrait of a kitten will help bring in revenue on the sale of the kitten. It may also help some future sales because people can see the pedigree and what comes out of the cattery. This is very different in my mind than commercial use where one image goes on a million cans of cat food to help entice the consumer to choose that brand.
Maybe its a difference between the dog and cat market. Folks bring me their cats in order to get professional images for their web sites, some do not even want prints. I have a package for prints, another for prints and web use, and a premium package that gives the customer even more. I support the small breeders in this way, they keep their numbers down, they raise the kittens underfoot, they personally care for each and every kitten and they work to advance the breeds. I do not give away the web files (like, grrrr, some of my competitors do), but I do make them affordable for the small breeders.
Are the dog customers paying their mortgages with dog sales? What percentage of the customers at dog shows are breeder?
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Re: Are People As Stupid As They Appear To Be?
[Re: psmith]
#24248
07/21/09 07:18 PM
07/21/09 07:18 PM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Florida
Jim Garvie
OP
Addict
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OP
Addict
Joined: Mar 2005
Florida
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Preston,
in the dog showing world, breeding is the only way you make money off of your "hobby". A stud dog can command between $1,500/stud service and $2,500/stud service. Puppies go from $1,500 to over $3,000 in the Rottie world and much more per puppy in certain breeds like Cavaliers and Poodles. The top stud dog in the Rottie breed last year has been bred over 80 times. At $2,500/stud service, that's $200,000 and, yes, that pays the mortgage.
A litter of Rottie puppies averages about 8 so at $1,500 per puppy, that would generate an income of $12,000. And, yes, that would pay the mortgage for at least one month after expenses.
So, I consider breeding ads to be commercial.
Ads for dogs that are competing for National rankings generate -$0- revenue for the dog owner. That dog may be also vying for breedings but when we run an ad for Drake our Great Dane client, we're not trying to get him breedings. We're trying to get the judges to recognize him in the ring and give him Best Of Breed and Group Placements. That is not commercial. His rankings -- in and of themselves -- will not generate $1.00 of revenue for the owners.
Revenue is revenue whether it comes from selling wind chimes or semen. In both cases, the usage is for commercial purposes i.e. to make money. The show cat market may be different but the show dog market is very much as I've described it.
Jim
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Re: Are People As Stupid As They Appear To Be?
[Re: Julie]
#24250
07/21/09 08:17 PM
07/21/09 08:17 PM
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Joined: Jan 2006
Alaska
DavidRamey
Veteran
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Veteran
Joined: Jan 2006
Alaska
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If it generates income, then it is commercial usage. If you want to rationalize another meaning, that is your problem and it doesn't change the fact that if it generates income, then it is commercial usage. This is not intended for any one in particular, just my thoughts thrown out for all to enjoy or bash.
David Ramey Photography
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Re: Are People As Stupid As They Appear To Be?
[Re: Julie]
#24251
07/21/09 08:57 PM
07/21/09 08:57 PM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Dallas, TX
TeresaBerg
Tracker
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Tracker
Joined: Jul 2009
Dallas, TX
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Quote:
I price things sorta differently, mainly session fee wise. Yes, they are using the photos as advertising, but, I will get a heck of a lot more for the cover of a magazine like KV vet than I will for the photo I sold for the cover of Dog News.
I get a lot less covers of *commercial* magazines though. I make more money off of portraits, as they are more emotionally based vs need based. You buy more from wants than you do needs.
If I put it on the web, I know it will probably be lifted. If I put it on my web gallery site, it is heavily watermarked with "Image not purchased" and my name in a opaque bar.
It's amazing how the internet has changed how people think about copyrights... kids all think music is free. Want a new song on your ipod? Just go to someone's myspace and download it.
Most of my clients would not scan my work or lift an image from my website, BUT, I have to say that some of them do. And I know they do because I friend them on facebook and see lots of familiar looking profile pictures and wall photos. Some of them honestly think that if they buy the print, they have the right to scan it. I have no idea how they rationalize copying and using an image they don't even buy! I try to watermark everything, but I'm sure some of them figure out how to get around that, too.
I can't imagine that someone thinks an internet image is going to be the right quality and resolution for a magazine! Amazing!
And as far as lifting images, I guess no matter what we say or do, there will be people who steal.
Last edited by TeresaBerg; 07/21/09 08:59 PM.
Teresa
Unleashed | fine are pet photography workshops
unleashed2009.wordpress.com
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Re: Are People As Stupid As They Appear To Be?
[Re: DavidRamey]
#24252
07/21/09 09:07 PM
07/21/09 09:07 PM
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Joined: Nov 2008
Kansas
psmith
Pooh-Bah
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Pooh-Bah
Joined: Nov 2008
Kansas
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Quote:
If it generates income, then it is commercial usage. If you want to rationalize another meaning, that is your problem and it doesn't change the fact that if it generates income, then it is commercial usage. This is not intended for any one in particular, just my thoughts thrown out for all to enjoy or bash.
All I'm saying is..If you treat everyone like IAMS, you may end up with only one customer.
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Re: Are People As Stupid As They Appear To Be?
[Re: psmith]
#24253
07/22/09 04:43 AM
07/22/09 04:43 AM
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Joined: Jul 2009
Augusta, GA
Marie Mitchell Photography
Old hand
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Old hand
Joined: Jul 2009
Augusta, GA
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Quote:
Quote:
What's the difference? In dog or cat showing, breeding is commercial. That's how you make money. Certainly not by winning a show or being ranked nationally. Those pursuits cost the exhibitor money.
Jim
I see the difference in how much revenue is generated from the ad. And in what the market will bear.
There are few cat breeders who earn their living breeding cats. Many just try to recoup their Vet bills and showing costs and not lose money. A portrait of a kitten will help bring in revenue on the sale of the kitten. It may also help some future sales because people can see the pedigree and what comes out of the cattery. This is very different in my mind than commercial use where one image goes on a million cans of cat food to help entice the consumer to choose that brand.
Maybe its a difference between the dog and cat market. Folks bring me their cats in order to get professional images for their web sites, some do not even want prints. I have a package for prints, another for prints and web use, and a premium package that gives the customer even more. I support the small breeders in this way, they keep their numbers down, they raise the kittens underfoot, they personally care for each and every kitten and they work to advance the breeds. I do not give away the web files (like, grrrr, some of my competitors do), but I do make them affordable for the small breeders.
Are the dog customers paying their mortgages with dog sales? What percentage of the customers at dog shows are breeder?
Preston is exactly right. I used to breed cats and never made money. The little bit of money I recieved did not cover all of my expenses. Cat breeders typically do not get into breeding to make money. And if they do, they soon learn it certainly does not work that way. In order to make money from breeding, a person would need to cut so many corners that they then become a backyard breeder and not a quality breeder. I never considered my breeding as commercial.
I have heard a heck of alot more dog breeders in it for the money than cat breeders.
Marie
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